How Empathetic Design Can Create an Instantly Recognizable Brand with Hailey Roper

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[0:20] Music.

[0:25] Hello everyone and welcome back to an amazing episode of the podcast.

If I'm going to be really real with you, I've been waiting weeks to record this episode.

[0:36] This episode is probably going to be the episode that will give you guys both the most aha breakthrough moments, and also give you simultaneously the most action steps to help make your visual brand identity impactful.

Because when we're business owners, there's a lot of times where we're posting on social media, we're showing up authentically, we're posting on the feed, we're posting on stories, but what does it take as business owners to make that visual brand identity recognizable to our audience instantly.

And I want you to create that irresistible appeal that will not only get you noticed and recognized, but help make your brand more money because that is what it is all about.

Today's episode, we're gonna be diving in with Haley Roper. Haley is behind the scenes on some of the most impactful business names in the entire industry.

She's insanely impressive, one of the most brilliant minds I've ever talked to when it comes to design in general. So this is a true honor and a real treat.

Haley, thank you so much for being here.

Hi, thanks for having me. I'm so excited. Of course, of course.

So first I wanted to just kind of briefly talk about how we met.

Like we actually have the opportunity to work on a team with each other.

We work for India or all together. And so that's how I got the chance to kind of work with you.

And of course, when I first met you, I knew that you were incredible at graphic design and obviously still are, But...

[1:59] One of the things that really struck me about working with you was you did graphic design, but you approached it very differently, almost from the mind of a strategist.

And as I continued to get to know you, I was really impressed with the ways that you were able to kind of have these brilliant strategy moves through design. You weren't just someone that just like applied colors to stuff and made certain fonts appear a certain way, you were able to use design to be the ultimate power move to make products sellable and make consistent six-figure launches with all of your clients. And so I'm really excited to be able to use a lot of what we've learned in working together, and be able to kind of also pull back the curtain on how you do things. So that way, everyone listening can really be able to like, utilize and actually implement that into their brand and make it irresistible.

So if I could, one of the things that really struck out to me the most that I've honestly been dying to ask, hands down, this had to be my first question.

One of your big talking points is integrating empathy into design.

I wanted to just kind of ask you really quick, why is it important for brands to have empathy?

And how does that make a brand more irresistible?

You know, empathy is what has made me the designer I am today.

And the strategist that I am today, I wouldn't.

Be where I'm at without it. And I think a lot of the brands that I've helped wouldn't be.

[3:28] I am 10 years into this experience as a business owner and a strategist and designer.

And the first couple of years was great. It was focused on design and I was doing great and creating beautiful things, but it still lacked some strategy behind it. I feel like it still didn't help my clients with sales and it still didn't help them feel connected to their brands.

And then I went through one of my hardest obstacles in my life and I became pregnant with my first and he was diagnosed with a life limiting diagnosis. And we learned that he was going to pass shortly after he was born. And I really closed down and really kind of lost myself.

[4:06] And who I thought I was and who I thought I was as a designer and shut down for a bit.

And it's interesting though, that design ended up being the one thing that kept me focused and be able to come out of like a dark place and I really started to connect with other people and other not just designers but just people and I started to create even if it was just quotes or social stories of sharing my story about Ivor and my grief and people started to really connect to it and it was through those visuals that people felt like they wanted to use them and were like hey can I use this I this is the first time I felt like I could really tell my story because you gave me this design or this platform to really share it.

And as I came out of that and restarted my business, it really began rooted in empathy.

I realized that it is so much easier for a brand and for someone to tell their story, to carry forward their brand.

[5:01] When it's rooted in themselves and they know how to short share it, because it's just based on empathy.

It's based on diving into the shoes of not only yourself, but your audience caring and knowing what they need and what they want. If a brand is not rooted in that.

[5:18] Then it is so much harder to not only attract the audience and keep them, but sell them on something. It has to be authentic. It can't be about the money. It has to be about the people.

[5:29] There's a quote that I love from a really great design expert, Debbie Millman. And she says, the common denominator in design is reaching people. The only way to do that is to be able to reach people in their hearts. And that requires empathy. That requires a level of understanding of human behavior of behavioral psychology that necessitates a way into understanding what it is fundamentally important to someone. So like, unless you know what's important to your audience, what they care about, you can't understand their human behavior. You don't understand what they need, what they want. And so yeah, after it's interesting that such a obstacle in my life ended up being such a game changer for my own brand and for others is empathy. And it really has just been such an incredible experience to see when other brands start diving into empathy and caring about their story and their audience, how much of a difference it can make. Oh my gosh. First off, I have to say, just right out of the gate, the fact that you are willing to come to the table literally within the first like minute or two of this episode and share something so deeply personal is so not only incredibly powerful but just awe-inspiring.

Bring me back to the moment where you realized that design was your way through dealing with.

[6:53] This traumatic situation. What was that like for you and how did you come to realize that you could make your own impact and ability 10 times stronger?

At first it's interesting because when you think of like people who have created things because of grief, you think about like big art pieces.

Like there's like the Guernica and the pyramid they were based on death.

So like there was almost this pressure on me that I was like, oh, am I supposed to create something great because of my pain and emotion?

But once I like gave up on that, I started to really start healing through design when I just let it lead me through finding symbolism in his story of my son's story through like the sun and Vikings and taking those symbolism and transferring them into telling stories.

And then when I was able to tell his story, I was able to understand how to kind of translate that into design.

[7:53] So yeah, I began to tell stories a lot easier And I used the symbolism in telling his stories.

And I started to translate them into visual aspects.

You know, I started creating logos for my own son. I branded my son.

I created, you know, this little symbol of him. His name is based off of a Viking and I designed a baby with a Viking head. And I just kind of like expanded from there.

And I even like...

[8:18] Did it into sewing and I just figured out ways to tell a story through symbolism and that translate directly into design and so design started to really heal me in a way that I didn't know was possible and then as I started to heal through design grief made me a better designer so it's funny that it coincided with one another that it not only healed me but it also allowed me to become a better designer they really just were compatible to one another and so I took what I learned in my own grief and my own storytelling and my own symbolism and really started to translate that into my clients, into their brands, you know, if it worked for me and I saw that system and how beautiful it was, it was so much easier for my clients to do that themselves. And it's been beautiful seeing these brands unravel when we really dig deep, which is uncomfortable, but that's what I'm there as a designer. It's not just to be like, so what looks cool? Well, it's fun.

And what feels like you, we're gonna get deep, we're gonna figure out your story, we're gonna figure out what these deep-rooted things are within your brand, and we're gonna tell that through symbolism, which is design.

The really cool thing, for those of you who have not had the opportunity to see what Hailey does.

[9:30] And the ways that her branding abilities really shine forth is, it's not just the logo, it's not just the colors, it's the full ecosystem.

Like, you see little nuances of thoughtfulness through icons, through the way things are oriented, through shape, through form, through hierarchy, through things that as you are building your website and you're thinking, gee, what's gonna make this look the coolest and what's gonna be the most attractive?

The thing that really stuck out to me was she took the idea of brand visuals from something that was, oh, these are the things that I need to have in order to appear cool and find a way to make a brand truly reflect on a very inward level who someone is.

Everything is purposeful.

And so for you, when you are working with a brand and trying to make everything purposeful, do you find that it's easy for business owners to be able to integrate that personal aspect of themselves into their branding?

Or do you find that that can often be?

[: 10:37

Well, it's a mush of a bunch of different people, right? Same as like a brand. And it never feels like it's you. So of course you can't carry it forward. So when you start your brand based on on your audience and your story, your business's story, and you create from that base and that story and build from that, it is so much easier to carry forward.

When it's your colors, we talked about those colors and why they represent certain things and how to use them and the purpose behind them and how to use them on a page and in marketing, how they translate as well as logos and type hierarchy.

When it all starts from a true sound base, then it really is so much easier to carry your brand forward because it's not a mush of a bunch of different ideas.

It's like centered.

The thing that kind of blew me away based on what you said was you're really giving people the opportunity to explore branding in a way that they've never seen it before.

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So for someone who knows that they need to create a brand that wants to begin the journey of looking like that and is scared, what do you say to that person? And how do you get them to feel comfortable starting and initiating the process?

You know, before jumping into your brand's visual identity, it's important to take a step back and define your brand and define its strategy.

So what is that? It's your tone of voice. It's your style.

It's how you would describe your brand. What's your goals? What would you describe your brand's personality?

Is, who's your audience, you know, you really need to have a base understanding of what you're.

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And so when you're thinking about your colors, and we're going to dive into this a little bit into the episode, Colors, fonts, visuals, icons, everything like that.

[: 16:00

So I really appreciated you challenging me in that aspect and being able to really extract part of where I come from.

And I think the other thing, too, that I really got from you when you were sharing your story was even if you're a first-time business owner and you haven't been in business for a while, can still pull aspects of your life that have nothing to do with your business or your business background in order to create that brand identity. For example, when you said that you branded your grief and your experience with your son, what informed the colors that allowed you to do that?

[: 16:44

And then after I sent past, you know, I.

Saw myself being impacted by different colors and that blue always came back and I think it was just a part of me That's just understands emotion and sadness and empathy blue that blue just feels like empathy to me.

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So we thought it was like a beautiful, you know, sign from him that like that hour was meant to be.

And so, you know, pulling in some yellows and oranges just into my life overall and into my brand was very important to me.

And so I was able to add some of those colors and while it's super colorful, I still have those neutrals to balance it out, but it has, I've finally embraced it because it has made it so much easier for my own brand to carry forward because it's so authentic and it's so on brand for what I'm offering my clients, you know, and like I say, I had to sit down.

I actually sat down with you and you asked me a bunch of questions because I was so focused in, I had thought about my brand so much. And again, I needed that perspective.

Even though I knew all these things, I was fighting myself and reevaluating my own thoughts.

And so to sit down with you and just talking through them helped me realize, you know, like, I'm not going to stray away from these colors that feel authentic to me because they not only represent me, but it's exactly I think what my audience would relate to subconsciously.

The thing that I'm really taking away from this that's really just like stuck out to me is the aspect of, you know, there are a lot of brands out there and business owners that have really.

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For a number of years and bringing it back to you know why they should consider.

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Why do you feel like that's more impactful than just throwing a bunch of colors together that means something in its whole, if that makes sense?

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That makes so much sense and honestly when I experienced having branding done intentionally in that way I remember how crazy it was the first like day or so I had that brand because like I was really excited to share you know oh these are my fonts these are my colors and you know I would show them and I noticed that I didn't have to explain myself in the same way as that I used to because when I did my branding before and when I was doing it all myself there was kind of this aspect of.

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Even in the sales process to like getting on a sales call trying to talk someone through working with me I found that there was this.

This familiarity that the customer had with me that i no longer had to spend time justifying who i was or convincing them of my value and so the the whole ecosystem of having work together it might be hard you know in the position that you're in as a listener who's just maybe done it yourself or maybe maybe not had the best experience with brand designers in the past but i'm telling you you'll know the trademark of really impactful branding like what you said when you're starting to notice that sales come easier to you. You start to notice that everything starts converting more effectively and you start feeling more excited about showing up online because everything is a pure and true reflection of your authenticity and who you are. I think what this all boils down to is the reason why so many of the brands that you work with are industry leading, are ahead of the pack and seem to just be dominating in their space is anyone, whether they just found out who they were or a seasoned audience member who's known you for years.

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And that's something that I feel like if any audience member listening to this would like to take away.

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And that's something that I've never seen any other graphic designer talk about at all.

So what is hierarchy and why is it important?

Oh, man. And that's funny because, you know, hierarchy is king.

It's very important. And it's something, you know, we learn is so important in design school.

Um, hierarchy is basically communication. It is communicating your message in the most important way. So if you have, say like, you know, you've got this Instagram story and you have a header and a subheader and title, and you have all this coffee you want to put on it. If you are making it all almost the same size, or there isn't enough of a disparity in the sizing or where they're placed, then someone's going to see that and be like, Oh, crap. Like, what am I supposed to read? Like, where am I? What's like, what's the point of this? And they're just going to be like, all over the place. And you instantly lost instantly lost the person guilty. I've done that. Yeah. Now you're trying to attract because they just don't know what you're trying to say.

So hierarchy is scaling down that content. It is.

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You're guiding them, you know, whatever you display, whether it's Instagram story, a PDF page, a website, you are giving your audience, your client, your buyer, a journey.

And hierarchy is the number one thing to use to put them on that journey that you want them to experience.

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I actually learned about hierarchy from you because I remember we were working on a sales page for India.

I knew, based on my past experience, that people generally, when they're looking at a sales page or a website, that they'll go through pretty quickly.

I always say like eight seconds to capture their attention.

And the thought hadn't occurred to me that just even the way that you size and position and orient your words and how they appear on the page can be largely responsible for whether they stay or leave in the first place.

And I made the mental connection in that note where I was like, Oh, Oh crap.

Like it's not just about having the right combination of words in the right message that they need to hear. It's how that is displayed. And so what do you typically have that's a good rule of thumb for that when you're helping someone cultivate that hierarchy for themselves? Or is there a rule of thumb?

Yeah, well, like.

[: 27:21

So I think back to the basics that I would give advices is focusing on the idea of a header, a subheader, a paragraph, or just small content, and a button. If that's your main message that you want to display. So you've got your header that's 32 pixels, if we want to get down to it.

Then you've got your subheader that's 22 pixels. Then you've got your paragraph that's like 14 pixels. So you can kind of imagine big, small, or smallest. Then that button is a different color.

It's got a different background. It's got a different size. And so while the button isn't the most important, it's also maybe something that you want them to click, then it can be.

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And that's what hierarchy is, you know, it's, it's.

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You want it to feel like, again, empathy, that the person writing it, the person talking to you, thought about you, thought about how all of us have these ADHD minds now, what's the quick message?

That makes so much sense. So much sense.

And as I'm sitting here, I just feel so spoiled that you're willing to break it down in that way to our audience, because we all see it, right?

We all see that there's like a header and there's like, you know, we see that there's font size variation, but we never think about how that translates to the customer experience.

We always think like, you know, Oh, does that look the way that I want?

And like, sure, having it, you know, appear in a way that is aesthetically pleasing absolutely matters and it definitely contributes to the vibe and the overall whole, but just you saying that hierarchy is truly an empathetic thing and being able to appreciate it from the customer's point of view, it really takes a whole new dimension of how you'd sign your website, how you'd sign your feed posts and your stories.

Suddenly, everything becomes framed with them in mind, which I am such a writer-die believer in and I'm so glad that that's something that's always been a core attribute for you.

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And so give me the hot take. What do you feel like people are doing that is completely cheapening their brand and ruining their user experience?

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But there are templates on there that every other person is using. And so if you see someone using it and you're like, oh, great, I want that template. And I'm going to like copy it exactly, but just like change the copy. That is a big sign. You didn't put your own branding into it. So your colors don't match, your imagery doesn't match, your fonts don't match. So like, how are they going to know it's you. Someone's going to be scrolling and just be like, Oh, who's this random?

Like, have you ever done that? I feel like that's happened to me before, but I'm like, who is this person I'm following? And then I click in and I'm like, Oh, I knew that I was following them, but I did not think this is something that they would create. And so, you know, sometimes people just scroll right by and they're not going to read their content because they don't realize it's from you or look at the content. So like, that's a big thing is just not like first using overused templates or not implementing your own branding. Another one is positioning. That's like a big easy one like aligning your copy. So like some people will use like a left aligned text and then a right aligned text and then centered and then it's like all over the place and like it's like you're almost like making them like bounce all over the page. So alignment is like a big thing that's like I can look at and be like, oh, a designer definitely.

[: 32:20

You know, sometimes people will do like not enough contrast. They'll have like a really dark background and then slightly light copy on top of it and so you're like squinting and you you can't really read it.

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You need to dispel it for me because I don't know if this is true or not.

I heard a rumor somewhere that it is bad practice to have two different types of fonts or three different types of fonts in your branding where you're interweaving serif and sans serif fonts.

Like, is it better to have all one?

Is it proper to mix them? What's, dispel that for me. I don't know if that's true.

So the big thing is it depends.

If you're a designer and you have background with knowing how fonts work.

[: 33:53

And it can create some beautiful designs and great emphasis in whatever you're saying.

And if you had someone brand you, gave you a brand guide, like this is how you do it, then yes 100%. But if you are doing it yourself, you have no understanding of how fonts work together and you're kind of just guessing or looking at other people's, then my thing is stay very simple. Simplify it. You can use italics to emphasize. You can use an underline, but I would not recommend mixing fonts and serifs and sans serifs within a paragraph or within a page in a complex way and less...

It comes with education and a background in typography. It seems like it's like a very like, deft, I don't know if that word, deft hand? Is that the word?

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It seems like I've seen more bad examples of integrating the two than good.

So for someone who maybe is like, hey, I can't afford a professional, would you just say a good rule of thumb?

Is to just keep it all the same until you have the opportunity to work with a brand professional.

Yes. Yes. And I know that it can feel like you're like, well, I think I saw someone else do this, so I'm just going to do it. But design and type always changes depending on the copy used, right? So while it looked good because someone else did it, when you change that copy, when you change what the header says, when you change what that paragraph says, it's going to change the way it looks and so it's hard to exactly copy that and make sure it looks good if you're not you don't have the background of like it it takes an eye a trained eye I wouldn't even say coming out of design school I still had the same eye I had now you know it takes time to master of like this looks good this this feels right and so my thing is it is great and okay to have two to three fonts just keep them separate so if you have a header and you're you're using a Sarah, say like you're using Garamond.

Use Garamond for your header.

Use Garamond italicized for your subheader. Use Arial for your paragraph.

And then for your button, use, if you have like a third font that you like want like a wide and extended, use that font.

But keep them separate, unless you really know how to integrate fonts.

[: 36:32

Yes, 1,000 parents. And a good template, I will say will either have a video or a guide telling you how to integrate those fonts together.

So if you're buying a template and it has these like fonts integrated in one another in like a cool design way, you're most likely going to struggle still because that copy is going to change and it's going to look different.

So if the template doesn't have this like guide on typography or this like video explaining, you know, how to kind of make it look good, then you're gonna struggle as well.

I see that so much. I can honestly attest that the first like three, four, maybe even five templates that I got, I was so frustrated. It felt like I was just like I bought something and then I was up a creek without a paddle and then suddenly like nothing ended up looking even remotely similar to the template that I bought at the end of the day because I just hacked it to death. And I that's such like a.

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So steer clear of being in a position, what you're saying is steer clear of being in a position where you really just have to completely brainstorm everything yourself. And I find, that to be really good advice. Because, you know, on the one hand, we all see templates and we're like, Oh, I like how that looks like I could see myself really liking that.

And, you know, you buy it and then you're like, this doesn't look good with my branding on it.

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And so from a standpoint of like a consumer who's like, you know, I want something that's going to look nice, that's going to like sell well, one of the things that I really like about what you're doing is you're like, okay, what is going to make the experience the best for the consumer, so that way it's sellable, but also reflect strength and integrity.

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Businesses service based businesses and you know things like that you know when they're trying to cultivate their brand and their visual identity i want to just know from your perspective is there anything else that you feel like is a bigger picture component of design that you feel like people are really missing that they can do to really elevate themselves and make their brand stronger.

I think one of the biggest things is people always come to me and they're like, Hey, can you just like create me a logo?

And there are designers out there who can create you a great logo, but there is, they're.

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You're going to get a logo. It's going to do nothing for you because when you're creating all aspects of things for your, like your brand, whether it be your website, your social socials ads, the logo is not the only thing you're using. And a lot of the time it's displayed as one of the smaller elements on your page, right? So if you're trying to make someone identify you or the, you want them to know it's you, that logo is not going to do much for you. If it's just hanging out by itself, you know, the colors, the fonts, the imagery, those all work together to display your brand and for your audience to be triggered or notified that it's you.

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I'm so guilty of that. I think my first logo, I was like, if I just have this, I'm gonna be set. And it was literally trademark 2011. It was gray with a little bit of pink and it had a feather in it for a photography business. I don't know how anyone could recognize a photography business out of a sideways feather, but I'll have to show you it because you'll literally die. Oh yeah.

But I was convinced, I was like, if I just had this, I'd be made, throw it on a business card, call it a day.

And it was just like, oh.

Little baby Ellie you have no idea and you know, it works fine if you're just like Oh, I need to just like give a business card and just like throw something on there or if it's just like you need just, Something quick, but it's not supposed to do anything for you It's just like an identifier like quick, but if you really want to be seen and known and want your audience to understand or see you or be noticed or sales to even work and to convert, then yeah, it's much more than the feather logo.

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I think the biggest thing that I have people come to me is, especially if they already have a brand, is they have these colors and they really don't know how to use them. I've, had actually three clients previously in the last three months do that. They're like, I don't like I have these colors, and there's like six of them. And that's great. If you, six colors. That sounds overwhelming, but it is a good thing only if you have strategy behind it.

And this is what this PDF, this guide does, but they're like, I'm just using two of them. I'm like, well, those two colors, unless they're like really identifiable, but usually it's like two neutral colors, your brand's not sticking out. So I was like, you know, I really need to create this guide for brands so they can understand.

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There are a lot of the free guides out there like color palettes like oh choose a color palette. That's romantic or not Which is great You can reference those But then you don't really know how it translates to your own brand and you don't know how to use them Like you have six colors, right?

What the heck do you do with it? And how do you not make it look like like pure chaos?

So I kind of go down personally. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Like how does this relate to me? So I created this guide and kind of went through the steps that I would in a brand discovery with a client and we kind of, I do a quick review of like color psychology and we talk about like how much color really impacts not only your brand, but your audience and kind of what the different colors mean.

And then I asked brand strategy questions. questions are so important to ask yourself before you choose colors and before you use them. So I took them right out from the questions that I asked with, again, for clients, like a big part of our brand exploration. And I lay those out for you to answer, to answer those questions, to refer back to. And then I asked them to create a mood board. A lot of the time, people think that like translating color or like.

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Cause sometimes a lot of designers break it down differently. Some designers say, you know, have three neutrals or three primary, two secondary, but it's still like, doesn't help you like translate it into design very well. You're like, well, I have three primary, but like, when do I use it? So I break it down into primary, secondary, and tertiary. And each of those has a light and a dark. And so I guide you through that palette. And then I have examples on how to translate that. I pulled designs directly from the templates that I'll be selling in the next couple of months. And they can directly apply those colors, those images, and their fonts into these templates and see if this color is working for their brand. And I sit within it. I just say, refer back to the questions you answered. Does this page with all those templates and your colors implemented feel like they refer back to that strategy that we reviewed?

And so, yeah, basically, I just guide them through a huge part of my discovery and that I do with clients that hire me full on to really help them nail down that coloring.

Because it's just, especially in combination with your imagery, your photography, so important.

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And then when it came to actually write text, everything just was black. And it was just like, But black might not be the best, or they just chose a random brown, not even thinking about what the text would even look like. And if you were to use that handful of neutrals that you picked, suddenly it's unreadable. And so really giving yourself every opportunity.

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And are open to what the possibilities for you could be like when you work with someone who really knows what they're doing that is just a small fragment of what i experienced but if you're not in the ballpark of doing it like hailey said you know the easiest way you can elevate.

Your business is getting a really well thought out template that has really thoughtfully considered how you can implement your own branding into it. And that's what I really appreciate about your templates too is you're not gonna buy a template and feel suddenly at a complete loss of how you can make it look like you.

You know exactly how to do that step-by-step. And so my last question for you to kind of wrap this up for you is people want to know more. Where can they find you?

[: 51:15

And again, like some of the design tips I've used in here, there's just small things here and there that can make a big difference in your brand.

And I want to share them. I've always been so one of those people that's get so stoked on sharing things that I know I just have like I get I'm a very passionate person and so sharing what I know is.

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But yeah, so if I can share it, I'm going to. And so that's kind of what creative can lounge has been. And, um, we've got our website creative in lounge.com, but yeah, that's where you can find us. And I am always open to DMS and questions. Like I said, I love to share.

So if you have questions, I'm always willing to answer them.

[: 52:20

So like this, this is a follow like truly worth worth doing on Instagram.

I wanted to just like personally just say like as a side note, like, Haley, you're so humble.

But like guys, like I'm telling you, her track record is sterling. And you know me, I'm a Scorpio.

I ain't the most complimentary person. But I will say as far as creating brand identities that are both empathetic and impressive, I've never met someone that has a sellable design track record quite like yours. You have helped make consistent six-figure launches for so many clients and I I can't wait to see the impact that these businesses are going to have, even from just buying one template.

Having something that is truly sellable makes all the difference.

So Haley, thank you so much for taking the time. You've been doing this all with a baby on your chest, and I'm just blown away with you.

[: 53:29

It's always so fun to talk to you, and you and I can always go on these long trains of talking about design and marketing and strategy.

So I'm glad that we were able to stay focused.

This won't be the last time. So for all of you, make sure to look down below.

I went ahead and linked to Haley's color guide.

It is stunning. Please download it. You guys are gonna absolutely love it.

And I will look forward to seeing you guys all next week.